Money Interventions: The Mom Who Shopped Her Family Broke | The Oprah Winfrey Show | OWN

Money Interventions: The Mom Who Shopped Her Family Broke | The Oprah Winfrey Show | OWN

[MUSIC] OPRAH WINFREY: Today, a family that seems to have it all on the brink of losing everything. I've never heard anything like this. This is crazy. Financial powerhouse, Suze Orman, with an emergency money intervention. SUZE ORMAN: Should I just tell everybody what you really got going here? WINFREY: Are you spending more than you make? This could help save you too. Next. WINFREY: From the outside, it looks like she has the perfect life. She is a stay-at-home mother of six children, which in itself is a really huge job. She lives in a big house in the suburbs, drives a new car, wears expensive clothes.

And she may look like a million bucks, but behind closed doors, it's an entirely different story. As you listen to Felice, think about what you spend on a typical day. You know, like millions of Americans, are you heading toward financial catastrophe by living a life you cannot afford? FELICE: Most people think that we have money. I think they'll be pretty shocked to know that we didn't have money. Every day, we go to Starbucks. There's very few days that we miss. Here we go. I probably spend $300 to $400 a month at Starbucks. WINFREY: Because her own six credit cards are maxed out, Felice secretly used her husband's credit card to get a cash advance.

Ms. CAMPBELL: What I do is I take a credit card check, and I'll go to the bank and I'll just cash it so he won't see money coming out of the bank. When I do shop, I do kind of get a rush. It makes me feel good. But afterwards, though, I get depressed. I'll buy something even if I really don't like it because I have to come out with something. 152 is actually pretty good, 'cause it's usually three or four or 500. I take care of the bills, so my husband doesn't realize how much money that I've spent on hair and nails and extensions. I know I've probably spent $3,000 to $4,000 just on the cost of the extensions in the last two years. FEMALE, RECEPTIONIST: Good morning, Felice. How are you? WINFREY: Felice spends nearly $60 a week on tanning and manicures. Ms. CAMPBELL: This is the relaxing time of the day, huh? All right, here we are, guys.

All right, go, go. I was in there probably less than 10 minutes and spent $112… MALE, FELICE'S CHILD: $12. Ms. CAMPBELL: …on candy, gum, glasses, jewelry and… FEMALE, FELICE'S CHILD: Clothes. Ms. CAMPBELL: …on outfit. Everything I do looks great and, you know, looks fun from the outside. But nobody knows what you go through on–what I'm going through on the inside. And it's a temporary fix because once the clothes are gone and once the money's gone, what–there's nothing else, you know, you just get yourself into debt. I feel like a failure. My mom was kind of overbearing and made me feel like I never did anything right.

I have a husband who does the same thing. I see my kids turning out to be like me and I don't want them to do that. WINFREY: Well, in the 10 hours that we were with Felice, my producer said that you spent over $600. True? Ms. CAMPBELL: True. WINFREY: Yeah. Felice's husband brings home around $5,000 or $6,000 a month. But their expenses are almost three times that amount per month. So this is a day of reckoning for you. Yeah. She says her out-of-control spending is causing her life to crash down around her. So you're most ashamed of what? Ms. CAMPBELL: Well, first of all, that my husband didn't know… WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Ms. CAMPBELL: …how much I was spending. But also the fact that my kids don't have health insurance, but I could spend all the money on my hair and my nails.

WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Ms. CAMPBELL: But that I can't take care of my babies. WINFREY: You know, that just sounds crazy to me that, you know, we just did the show with Michael Moore on this, you know, his documentary on Americans and health insurance and what it costs if one of your children were to break an arm or, you know, suddenly get sick. It would devastate your family, put people, you know…

Ms. CAMPBELL: Absolutely. WINFREY: Yeah, yeah. Ms. CAMPBELL: And my children–a lot of bad things happen, you know, I–we almost lost a daughter a couple of years ago to a ruptured appendix and also, I've had health problems. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Ms. CAMPBELL: And I have a daughter who has a neurological disease and she has a tumor on her optic nerve, and is supposed to have an MRI every year and it's been over two years, almost two and a half years since she's had an MRI. We have no dental–we haven't been to the dentist. WINFREY: Wow. And the reason is what? The reason why your nails–getting your nails done and looking the way you do is more important than your daughter getting an MRI is what? Ms. CAMPBELL: You know, it's selfishness. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Ms. CAMPBELL: It's total selfishness. I just–my kids mean the world to me and I should be putting them first. But I've put myself first. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Ms. CAMPBELL: And, you know, as much money as I spent, I should have health insurance. It would cost about $1,000 a month for us to have health insurance.

WINFREY: Wow. Ms. CAMPBELL: But yet I could get all these things done and don't even have health insurance for my kids. It's shameful. WINFREY: Yeah, it is shameful. But you are able to articulate it so well. So you know it's shameful. Ms. CAMPBELL: Yes. WINFREY: Or did you just realize it was shameful? Ms. CAMPBELL: Yeah. I just realized it. WINFREY: Really? Ms. CAMPBELL: Yeah. You know, I didn't realize how much I was really spending. WINFREY: Really? Ms. CAMPBELL: And I didn't realize what I was doing. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Ms. CAMPBELL: And my daughter, you know, graduated from pre-school and… WINFREY: I love it that kids now graduate from pre-school. Ms. CAMPBELL: Pre-school, yeah. [LAUGHTER] Ms. CAMPBELL: She… WINFREY: Didn't just finished pre-school and go to the first grade, you have graduated from pre-school.

Ms. CAMPBELL: Exactly. WINFREY: Okay. Ms. CAMPBELL: She just graduated from pre-school. And she said on tape that what she wanted to be when she grew up was a mom because they like to shop a lot. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Ms. CAMPBELL: That's kind of what did it for me. That… WINFREY: Yeah, that's the message you're sending? Ms. CAMPBELL: That's the message I'm sending my children. WINFREY: So it sounds to me like having just, you know, read your background and my producers who've spent more time with you. And Suze Orman, who is the, you know, master blaster financial expert is here today. But it seems to me that you've lived a completely external life, that you're completely disconnected from who you really are. You just sort of living outside yourself. Ms. CAMPBELL: Absolutely. I have lived outside myself. I wanted people to like me. And I grew up with an overbearing mother… WINFREY: Mm-hmm.

Ms. CAMPBELL: …who bought me–and I was the only child and I got anything I wanted. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Ms. CAMPBELL: And I kind of been living the same way with my kids. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. So you must be also very spiritually disconnected. I mean spiritually, not religion, but disconnected from anything to do with the– essence of yourself, to live this externally. Ms. CAMPBELL: Absolutely. WINFREY: Yeah. Ms. CAMPBELL: I feel like I'm living a lie. WINFREY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it's very interesting because I remember when I was a kid, you know, driving by rich people's houses and in the suburbs and dreaming about what it would be like to live inside those houses. And I know many of you watching, you sometimes wonder what life is like inside. You will be surprised by what's going on behind Felice's doors. Ms. CAMPBELL: Oh, another one of my habits, shopping online. First, I had the receipt because I don't want my husband to see that big of a dollar amount.

I'll show you my little hiding place for my receipts. It's under a baby blanket in here. And it's funny 'cause people think that I have a lot of clothes, but I really don't. I love new clothes. However, I like getting rid of new–the clothes just as quickly to go buy new ones. Then what I'll do is put the tag back on and put it in a garage sale. I just bought this. It's too big for me. I'll end up selling that. My husband knows that I buy things and I return them. I just don't think he realizes how much. I do the same thing with all my kids. My kids–somebody was just over, she asked my daughter where all her clothes was and she told her that I sell it, that I don't keep them. So my daughter had said that she was embarrassed. Ms. CAMPBELL: But they like to go get new stuff too. I love my murals. I have one in almost every room. They average 2,000 to 4,000.

This is my 16-year-old daughter's bedroom. I'll show you her closet and why she gets teased. She has two or three pairs of jeans. She only owns one pair of shoe, no, two pairs of shoes. I usually buy them like seven or eight shirts and a couple pairs of jeans and then after two months, we get rid of it all. My son's room is a little unfinished. I'm kind of embarrassed. So I will take you to his closet too. It's all the same. I think he has one outfit. This furniture's old to me 'cause I've had it for like three years now.

At my next garage sale, I was planning on selling both these items. The silk plants, I've probably got it at about 5,000, 6,000, 7,000, invested in plants. Ms. CAMPBELL: My kitchen, and living room area, this is where we spend most of our time. I just actually had these (unintelligible) done. I just started getting ready about a week ago for a garage sale. I usually have about four a year. I have six kids and I sell their toys sometimes just because I don't like them. I do like having the reputation at the garage sales, like the night before, I don't even sleep. I'm up all night thinking about it. I don't know why.

It's probably just as bad as shopping, if not worse. WINFREY: Okay. [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: So your son has one shirt in the closet, why… Ms. CAMPBELL: Some of them were in the wash, but, yeah, I think he only has like five or six shirts right now. WINFREY: Okay. And so you buy the kids clothes and then you sell them. Ms. CAMPBELL: I sell them… WINFREY: Why? Ms. CAMPBELL: …to buy new stuff. WINFREY: To get money to buy new stuff? Ms. CAMPBELL: New stuff. Mm-hmm. But… CAMPBELL: I buy something for $50 and sell it for $1. WINFREY: Yeah. And how is this helping your marriage? Ms. CAMPBELL: Oh, it's not. WINFREY: It's not. Ms. CAMPBELL: It's–there's a lot of conflict. WINFREY: Yeah, I would think so. Well, next, she says this is the worst case she's ever seen, a financial intervention with Suze Orman. We'll be back. I've never heard anything like this. This is crazy. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] WINFREY: Well, like millions of Americans, Felice says she is living a big lie.

She just told us that her lavish lifestyle has left her family on the verge of losing everything. We used to call it keeping up with the Joneses, but now it is literally destroying a lot of families in our country. Jenna is Felice's neighbor and friend. And she was so worried about Felice that she wrote us a letter. Why, Jenna? JENNA: I wrote it because I was so worried about her. And I knew she was in debt up to her ears and she wasn't taking any steps to make it any better. It was only getting worse. But mainly, I did it because of the kids. And I knew they didn't have medical insurance. And if something happened to one of the kids, it would be devastating. WINFREY: Yeah. So were you upset when you found out your neighbor and friend had written us a letter? Ms. CAMPBELL: I was for–at first. I didn't think that it was a problem. At first–but I got over it really quick.

But–I then went upstairs and started adding up how much I owed, and I didn't realize that I owed almost $50,000 in credit cards. WINFREY: Hmm. Ms. CAMPBELL: And then I realized, okay, there's a problem. WINFREY: Felice says her husband had no idea how bad things were until just a couple of days ago. And here's what Phil, who is here, had to say about his wife's behavior when we talked to him on tape. PHIL: Not only she's been spending her money on, I can't tell you. I got credit card out there that's got $10,000 and I don't know where half of that stuff came from.

I fear if she continues to go–continue to do what she's doing, she will get us in a situation where we won't be able to pay the mortgage payment anymore. Ms. CAMPBELL: This is my baby's house and I don't wanna sell it. We have a lot of friends. My husband doesn't make enough money to pay it off and I don't wanna have to go to back to work. I wanna stay home with my kids and be a mom. Mr. CAMPBELL: If you give your wife responsibility to take care of the family with the funds that have been given to her and then she's spending it frivolously on things that really that are meaningless, because she's wanting to make an impression of what she looks like, and trying to get people's approval of, you know, she wants to be the beautiful person on the block.

Ms. CAMPBELL: I'm totally scared. I don't wanna give up stuff. It's the way I've lived my whole life. My whole life, I've had stuff. WINFREY: Felice and Phil owe close to $100,000 in just credit cards and taxes. You know, I was just–you know, I'm looking at you on that tape, Phil, and I feel for you because, you know, you're the provider for your family.

And I'll never forget I did a show years ago with all these fathers who say, you know, every father has a dream for his family. So you're going out working and you're bringing in a really, you know, great salary, you know, far above what the average American is doing in this country. Living in a nice neighborhood, trying to do the best for your family. And then you find out that your wife really has this problem. Seems like a problem. How do you feel? Mr. CAMPBELL: It's very depressing, it's very hurtful, and it's caused much friction between us here. WINFREY: Yeah. Yeah. I would think so. I would think that it's not just hurtful, it feels disrespectful. Mr. CAMPBELL: Absolutely. WINFREY: It feels disrespectful to me. How does it feel to you, Felice? Ms. CAMPBELL: I didn't think I was being disrespectful, but it is very disrespectful. WINFREY: Disrespectful. Ms. CAMPBELL: Very. I hide stuff from him. WINFREY: Yeah. Ms. CAMPBELL: If I spend something that's $200, I'll tell him it's $100, you know, or $50.

WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it means that you're–you were saying that you're living a lie, you're also living a lie in one of your most intimate relationships. Ms. CAMPBELL: Yes. WINFREY: Yeah, yeah. Mr. CAMPBELL: And even the children hide things from me, because mommy says, don't tell daddy we bought that. He may be upset with me. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. CAMPBELL: You know? So I can hear them in the room every once in a while talking, don't tell daddy we got these new shoes today. Mommy told us not to tell him. So what are we passing on to our children? We're setting their marriages up for failure already, because that's how they're gonna react with their husbands. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. And well, Suze Orman, she's a powerhouse, Honey.

With six New York Times bestsellers and she's also a contributing editor to my magazine, "O" magazine. Every month, I read your column. I can't believe seven years later you still have something to say fresh every month. [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: It's amazing. Suze has helped millions of families get control of their money. Come on up here and join us, because… [APPLAUSE] WINFREY: …I know you know what's going on. What's going on? One of the reasons why I asked Suze to write for my magazine every month is because she just sets it straight. So go ahead. Ms. ORMAN: All right. So I wanna set everything straight first with–I don't want any of you and I mean any of you here on the audience or at home to be judging these two. Because if you think that they are really any different than most of the people in America today, I'm here to tell you they're not.

Of course, they're to the extreme, but everyone of us, everyone of you does the same thing in your own way. That's number one. Number two, I'm not here to save you. This show actually, in my opinion, isn't here to save you. This is all about us giving you the information that you need to save yourselves. Ms. ORMAN: And so, the goal, in my opinion, of today's show, is so that you leave with information, you leave with information, so that you can all become people who own the power to control your destinies, where you can save yourselves.

Listen, and I'm gonna talk to the two of you. You're not selfish. I heard you say that you were selfish. I personally don't believe you're selfish. I think you're selfless. I think because you don't have a self, 'cause you don't know who you are, that is why, my dear Felice, Felice that means happy in Italian. Ms. ORMAN: You know, that is why you're doing this things that you are doing, you are just simply trying to find yourself.

You are trying to define yourself by the things that you buy, rather than you define the things around you. And you keep buying new and new things, 'cause you can't find the definition of yourself. And you, sir. Don't you dare sit here and act like she has been deceiving you, 'cause you have been deceiving yourself. You are a father who sees that you have six children. You knew you didn't have insurance for them. Ms. ORMAN: You knew that you have two children, your 5-year-old daughter, her teeth, they're rotting. You know that. You know the second to the eldest one has this problem. But you say it's disappointing because your wife, you've given her this responsibility, to pay the bills. Where were you in this? Why didn't you show up knowing what she was doing? Was it easier for you just to stick your head in the mud and blame it all on her? No, we have a totally dysfunctional relationship with money and we have a dysfunctional relationship with each other, but where does it all start from? A dysfunctional relationship with ourselves.

WINFREY: Yourself, yeah. Ms. ORMAN: I–actually, I'm so sick and tired of people going back to their past now and saying, I had an overbearing mother who said this, and that's why I'm doing that. Oh, give me a break, everybody. Give me a break. You are an adult. I don't care about the past. All I care about, from this day forward, is the future and that you have a desire to save yourself. You have a desire to be that great person that I know you are. See, I don't think you're a bad person. I don't think as these people here were watching and they went huh. I didn't look at that. My heart was breaking, 'cause I know you have greatness within you.

I just know you've never discovered it. And that is the true state of poverty. WINFREY: Coming up, Suze's financial detox for Felice. We'll be right back. Excellent. [APPLAUSE] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] Ms. CAMPBELL: This is my daughter Kelsey. And this is her 13th birthday and we got a limo for her. And then we took the girls, and we went and got their nails done. The nails alone was like, because all the girls got French manicures, was like over $400, and the limo was probably, I would say 1500. Their party, last year, we had a whole zoo come. We had a llama, we had a zebra.

FELICE'S CHILD: We had donkey. Ms. CAMPBELL: There was a donkey. This one was probably $1500 to $2,000. The birthday party with the snow, the snow was almost $2,000. The only other one is we took my daughter for her 16th birthday to… FELICE'S CHILD: Las Vegas. Ms. CAMPBELL: …Las Vegas. That was about $4,000. It's definitely pressure out to the next one, but everybody almost expects it, because they like coming to the parties.

Mr. CAMPBELL: It's too much pressure on me, knowing how money's gonna spend, is just–creates a hardship. Financial problems, you know? Trying to get enough money together to pay the next car payment 'cause we've spent it all on the birthday party. It's depressing, because these values are gonna inherited to my children, and I don't want to leave that type of a legacy to them. WINFREY: So Felice is a stay-at-home mother of six children, whose spending is so out of control. Suze Orman says she's on the verge of bankrupting her family. So how bad is their situation? Ms. ORMAN: I've been doing this, as you know, for a long, long time. And I have never seen such disrespect for money as in this family here. I don't even think you have any idea how bad it is and you don't. I went through every single bill this family has on your credit report. I have spent countless number of hours looking at your financial situation. Should I just tell everybody what you really got going here? You have, not $50,000 of credit card debt, my dear Felice.

Between your loans and everything, you have about $135,000. You have a mortgage that totals–you have two mortgages of about $658,000. Ms. ORMAN: And the bad part about this mortgage is this. It's what's called a negative amortized loan. So every year, this mortgage increases by $20,000. There is no longer any equity in this home at all and all you are paying is $1800 a month on it, and that is to adjust, in a few months, up to $3300 a month.


Besides that, you have three cars, totaling $1700 a month in payments. Two of them are leased, one you have purchased. There is no money left in any bank accounts. All your credit limits are almost used up. So you intervened at a perfect time and Felice is willing to say, I'm in trouble, because she can no longer get any cash advances to pay the bills. Ms. ORMAN: Do you, sir, know that your wife has been paying the bills on cash advances, in checks, from the credit cards at an interest rate of 23 to 30 percent? So this situation is one where we are two months behind on the mortgage payment.

Ms. CAMPBELL: No, we're two weeks behind, but we're not… Ms. ORMAN: Oh, two weeks behind, excuse me, but you're behind. Mr. CAMPBELL: Always behind. Ms. CAMPBELL: Yes, we're always behind. Ms. ORMAN: Behind. So how bad is it? On a scale of one to 10? Maybe a thousand. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Ms. ORMAN: And I don't say that lightly. WINFREY: Mm. Ms. ORMAN: Now that's not so that you give up hope. You have now created a reality for yourself and your families that you are not going to be able to buy yourself out of. I heard you say on the video, you don't wanna sell the house. You're gonna have to sell the house. I'm gonna make suggestions to you, where you're gonna have to leave the state of California.

You are actually going to have to do everything that you haven't ever thought you were gonna have to do if you're willing to stay together, keep the kids above board here. And, you know, when you're gonna have to take them? When you go home tonight. WINFREY: Wow. That's a lot to take in. Ms. CAMPBELL: That was heavy. WINFREY: That's a lot to take in. Okay. So, you say, she needs to do what? Get a job immediately? Ms.

ORMAN: So, you have got to get a job immediately because there is no-if you don't, you're gonna find your–your whole life is about to disappear in front of you. The reason I want you to get a job is, your number one priority is we have got to get health insurance for these kids. We have to get health insurance for the two of you. So, do you know what kind of job I want you to get? I'm gonna tell you. And I want you to do this. I want you to do exactly what I'm about to tell you. Are you willing to do anything I say? Ms. CAMPBELL: Absolutely. Ms. ORMAN: Here's what I want you to do.

I personally contacted Starbucks. [APPLAUSE] Ms. CAMPBELL: Perfect. Ms. ORMAN: Now, I wanna… WINFREY: Perfect. Ms. ORMAN: I wanna tell you why I want you to go to work at Starbucks. If you work for Starbucks part time at least 20 hours a week, and you do so for 90 days, you will get full health benefits for your entire family. And it will cost you anywhere from $150 to $300 a month. You will get other benefits beside-you can drink all the lattes you want. Ms. CAMPBELL: Al right. [LAUGHTER] Ms. ORMAN: And so… [APPLAUSE] Ms. ORMAN: …but that is not a joke. You can still stay at home when you need to be at home. I want you to go to work at night after he comes home.

I want you to work on weekends. It wouldn't kill you to do something besides what you're doing, as well. Do you work on weekends? Mr. CAMPBELL: No, I do not. Ms. CAMPBELL: Well, you're about to. And so… [LAUGHTER] Ms. ORMAN: But these are the measures that we have to take. So, I first want you to get a job. Next, you have got to get life insurance on this man here. This man is making $100,000 a year before taxes, approximately $60,000 a year after taxes. If he dies, this is your jewel, sweetheart. This is your ticket to ride right now.

And if anything happens to this man, you are going to be on the street, you're not gonna be able to feed your kids. This is drastic. So, we need a life insurance policy on him. If you simply get a 10-year level term policy– insurance that's only good for a specific term –a million dollars on him at his age, 43, will cost you $50 a month, less than your Starbucks.

Mr. CAMPBELL: Mmm. Ms. ORMAN: Got it? So, life insurance, health insurance, you're going to get a job, and you're gonna go home and you're gonna put your house on the market. Ms. CAMPBELL: We were already talking about it. Ms. ORMAN: We're not talking. [LAUGHTER] Ms. ORMAN: There's no time for talking any more. Ms. CAMPBELL: I know. Ms. ORMAN: Because if you don't do this, they are gonna take the house away from you anyway as soon as it adjusts. It is no secret that the real estate markets are not doing well, especially in California, in your area. We have two million loans about to reset where their payments are going to go up.

I am not asking you, I am begging you. You have got to put your house on the market for sale and I'd like you to look in Seattle, Washington to move. The reason that I want you to do that is you–want me to tell straight about you… WINFREY: First of all, Starbucks. Starbucks. Ms. ORMAN: Starbucks. [LAUGHTER] Ms. CAMPBELL: There you go.

CAMPBELL: Yeah. Yeah. WINFREY: First of all, Starbucks. [APPLAUSE] WINFREY: Isn't that their headquarters? Yes. Ms. ORMAN: Yes. Seattle–many of you may not know this, but Felice was a mortgage broker. And I want you to move to Seattle, Washington because Seattle is one of the hottest real estate markets in the country. You could go back there, work part-time for Starbucks if they'd hire you, and do what? Get a job as a mortgage broker. Again, you are a computer contractor. IT is very big in Seattle. Washington has no state income tax. WINFREY: Wow. Ms. ORMAN: So, your money will go much further than you living in California where they have a state income tax. And that's what I want you to do. Those are your moves for now. WINFREY: Excellent. Ms. CAMPBELL: I'm ready. Ms. ORMAN: Are you… WINFREY: What do you think, Phil? Ms. CAMPBELL: He's probably gonna be the more… Mr. CAMPBELL: I'm gasping a little. [LAUGHTER] Ms. ORMAN: I have that effect on people.

Mr. CAMPBELL: Yeah. [LAUGHTER] WINFREY: We'll be right back. We'll be right back. That's a plan. [APPLAUSE] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] WINFREY: Wow. That's pretty direct. So, did you say you have three–there are three cars? Mr. CAMPBELL: Correct. WINFREY: Three cars. And–so, who's driving the third car? Mr. CAMPBELL: The third car's been up for sale for a while. That was a mistake of mine. I thought the car, when I bought her one of the vans, one of the vans was gonna get sold, and unfortunately we haven't been able to sell it. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. CAMPBELL: We've been stuck with that for about six months. WINFREY: What do you think of what Suze just said to you? Mr. CAMPBELL: I don't know yet, but some of the things that she said–the move, I'd have to take a look at it.

WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. CAMPBELL: Felice getting a job, I thinks' a wonderful idea–especially at Starbucks. She'll fit in. I need to think about that move. Ms. ORMAN: Let me tell you why I want you to move out of California. Mr. CAMPBELL: Yeah. Uh-huh. Ms. ORMAN: I love California, love it. But it is one of the most expensive states that you can live in throughout the entire United States. They have one the highest state income taxes around. How do you give yourself a 5, 10 percent increase in salary? Work at a state that doesn't have state income taxes. Also– I'm just gonna have to say this to you.

It's gonna be very difficult on your kids and the friends that they have at school. I don't think it would hurt for all of you to start working as a family team, starting over new without having to answer to everybody looking at you and going, the mom with the garage sales, the mom with this. You need to leave all your old definitions of yourself behind. So, you do have to go into financial detox and go to some place where you can breathe some fresh financial air. And I think that would be Seattle, Washington for your career as well as yours. WINFREY: Thank you, both. What are you thinking? Ms. CAMPBELL: I think it's a great idea.

I don't–I could do it for sure. Him, I don't know. He's with family, leaving family. But I know my parents would probably follow me anyways. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Ms. ORMAN: Which, by the way, I just have to quickly say this. I'm asking family members and everybody to help me here. If you see these two coming up anywhere, you are not to lend them money. Your parents are not to save you. Your parents are to not take you out of this situation.

Stores–if you see her coming, please don't sell to her, but don't you dare go to your parents and ask for help. This is not their problem. This is your problem. Stop asking others to save you. I want you to be a woman who can save yourself. Do you hear me? Ms. CAMPBELL: Absolutely. Absolutely. WINFREY: I heard you. Ms. CAMPBELL: I heard you. [LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE] WINFREY: We'll be right back. Thank you both. We'll be right back. WINFREY: Coming up, a young couple with a baby on the way. Can Suze intervene in time to save them from drowning in $300,000 of debt? [MUSIC] [MUSIC] WINFREY: Well, it is a crisis felt in every town in America. People who have been spending more than they can afford are now facing financial ruin. With a baby on the way, the Doyles are one of those families.

SHAWNA: We're in a beautiful place that people would probably die for, you know? This in New York–this is, like, you can't beat it. WINFREY: Corey is a computer security analyst. Shawna is a human resources specialist. They owe $230,000 in student loans and $60,000 in credit card bills. COREY: This is my thing. I love movies. You can see the plasma. I have a total of 900 DVDs. WINFREY: They pay more than $1300 a month for two luxury cars. Mr. DOYLE: Shawna, she drives our first car. This is pretty much my baby. Just check out that grill. That's number one. But keep in mind, I'm not–didn't buy this to impress anybody. WINFREY: Like many women, Shawna has a thing for purses and shoes. Ms. DOYLE: This is my most recent Gucci bag and it's like $1200. I bought these shoes and they were $900.

I have the baby's furniture on layaway, but I have these shoes that are worth nothing sitting in the closet collecting dust and I just felt so ashamed. WINFREY: Five years ago, the Doyle's were debt-free. Now, their American dream is a nightmare. Ms. DOYLE: It's probably an automated–hello? He's not available right now. May I ask who's calling? Guess who just called? 877. I was explaining that it was probably one of your private school loans. Mr. DOYLE: It is. Ms. DOYLE: Yeah, that's what I figured. So, they left a message for you. Mr. DOYLE: How often do they call? Six to eight times a day. If it's late, they're gonna call.

I mean-and they–we are late every month. I'm late every month, so they're gonna call. It's very stressful. Sometimes you don't even sleep good. Ms. DOYLE: I hate to have a baby and bring a baby into a situation where we are, like, struggling, because we've made poor choices. WINFREY: Well, we'll talk to Corey and Shawna. We'll be right back. Suze's gonna talk to them. I'm not saying a word. We'll be right back. [LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] WINFREY: Corey and Shawna lived the high life in New York, but they are in way over their heads, like so many people who are watching, with nearly $350,000 of debt. And Suze says it's time for them to face the music and the music is? Ms. ORMAN: The music is (makes noise). First of all, $200,000 of that debt is student loan debt. All right, not so bad. There's a big difference between student loan debt and credit card debt. Student loan debt is an investment in who you are today and who you wanna be tomorrow.

Credit card debt, however, my dear friends, is you are paying for your present day desires, but your costs will be your future day needs. Oh, what kind of needs? Like feeding that baby. You said on the videotape, you're standing in front of this car, this car that cost you $700, almost $800 a month, and you said, that's my baby. Ms. ORMAN: Corey, that's not your baby. That's your baby. That is your baby. And that's gonna be your baby, and that is life.

But you have chosen to drive around in a fancy car to impress people you don't even know or like. Don't tell me it's not to impress people. Of course it is. And you haven't been paying $100,000 of your student loans. Do you know that every time you don't answer that phone that student loan company is going, oh, I'm so glad they didn't answer. They're just wishing and hoping you don't pay that loan. You wanna know why? Because you cannot, in 99% of the circumstances out there, ever bankrupt a student loan. Ms. ORMAN: A private student loan is at about a 10 and a half to 16% interest rate that compounds. That 100,000 is going to go to 200,000, it's going to go to 400,000. And you can never get rid of it in bankruptcy unless there's some tremendous hardship, which you are not in. And that means that eventually they have the ability to come in and garnish your wages, sir. And yet you think you're getting away with something when you don't answer the phone? What are we doing here? You make between the two of you $146,000 a year.

That is a lot of money. So once again, we have a circumstance where when you feel less than, you spend more than. What do we do? WINFREY: What do we do? Ms. ORMAN: What do we do to, it's–you, we have good news for. It's not too late. It's not too late. Your biggest problem is going to be when you go on maternity leave. You're not going to have any income for three months. But I went through every one of your bills as well. You can live on just his salary. You're not gonna be driving to work anymore, so you can save $220 a month in gas.

So, number one, you're doing great if you stop buying things that you don't need and you stop with this DVD. In fact, I would love if you took that DVD collection, download it to an iPod, or whatever it is that you do, and sell them on eBay. Sell your shoes on eBay. Ms. ORMAN: We need to bring in money so that you can get by for your three months of not working. And then you've solved your problems. But you're creating the problems for you. See, their problem is like many of our problems out there. You create your own problems and then you feel sorry for yourself and you think you're victims. We're not victims to our circumstances. We are the creators of our circumstances.

Would I be selling my cars if I were you? Oh, you bet you I would. I would exchange my car, "my baby," for my baby. That's what I would be doing if I were you. Ms. ORMAN: You've chosen to do a car loan rather than paying your student loan? You are literally giving up your life because you've done that. You are driving yourself into a situation you are never gonna be able to drive out of if you don't do a U-turn right now. Anybody ever tell you if God permits U-turns? He does. Let's do one right now.

[APPLAUSE] WINFREY: Okay. That wasn't so bad. Mr. DOYLE: No, I mean, I was gonna do that anyway, sell the car. WINFREY: You were? Mr. DOYLE: Yeah. I was… Ms. ORMAN: It sure didn't look like that in the video. [LAUGHTER] Mr. DOYLE: No. I mean, but the video was done, you know, a while back, and, you know, Shawna and I have already had a conversation about well… Ms. DOYLE: Then he called me and said we're gonna sell the car. Mr. DOYLE: We have two cars, and my number one priority is my family. Also, I said in the piece was, it's just–they're just things. WINFREY: Mm-hmm. Mr. DOYLE: I mean, that's nothing. I'd get rid of them yesterday, and that's what needs to be done, 'cause this is my baby.

My, my… [APPLAUSE] WINFREY: That's right. Coming up, how to give yourself a financial checkup. Suze's prescription, next. We'll be right–that's right, that's your baby. [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] [MUSIC] [MUSIC] WINFREY: All right. Suze says everybody needs to give themselves exactly what she just did for our families here today, a financial checkup. And how do you do that, Suze? Ms. ORMAN: You do a checkup by–here is the real problem. We're all spending money we don't have to impress people we don't even know or like. So… [LAUGHTER] [APPLAUSE] WINFREY: It's so funny. It's so funny. Yes. Ms. ORMAN: And that's what we're doing.

So, here is the checkup. I just want all of you to ask yourself three questions before you ever spend another dime. WINFREY: Okay. Ms. ORMAN: And I call them the three financial gatekeepers. WINFREY: Okay. Ms. ORMAN: Is it kind, is it necessary, is it true? If you answer no to any one of those three questions, I ask you to stop right there and just don't do it. WINFREY: Well, you may never get another pair of shoes. [LAUGHTER] Ms. ORMAN: Yeah, but you might have a crib for a baby. WINFREY: Yeah. Is it kind, is it necessary… Ms. ORMAN: And is it true? WINFREY: …and is it true. Ms. ORMAN: Yeah. If you're in credit card debt, it's not kind. Is it necessary? You know if it is. And if you don't have the money to pay for it outright, it is not true. If you have to put it on a credit card, it's not true. WINFREY: Well, Suze's latest book, as I've said earlier, she's had six consecutive best sellers. This one is called, "Women and Money: Owning the Power to Control Your Destiny." And you said this is your favorite because? Ms.

ORMAN: Women give to everybody before they give to themselves. This book shows you how to save yourself, number one. And also, it simply asks you to give to yourself as much as you give of yourself, 'cause ladies, you know, you all know, you say yes out of fear versus no out of love. This book teaches us how to do what's right versus doing what's easy. WINFREY: Wow. We'll be right back. [APPLAUSE] WINFREY: Wow. WINFREY: For more of Suze's approach to giving yourself a financial checkup, you can go to These families were really–I think, it took a lot of courage for them to face up to their mistakes. [APPLAUSE] WINFREY: And you can, too, for your sake and the sake of your family. Again, Suze's book is, "Women and Money: Owning the Power to Control Your Destiny." Owning it.

Ms. ORMAN: Isn't that what it's all about? WINFREY: Yes, owning the power. Ms. ORMAN: Owning the power to control your destiny. Women, isn't that what you all want? Yeah. WINFREY: Amen. [APPLAUSE] WINFREY: Bye everybody. Bye everybody. [MUSIC].

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